This is completely off the wall, apropos of just about nothing.
I’ve been wondering about that “$45,000/year joint income” the Frosts have touted as their upper limit.
Hmmm… that’d be like two kids working full time at WallyWorld, getting paid a nominal $11/hour joining forces (assume a nuptial event) and declaring a $40-$45,000/year joint income. That’d be about right.
[UPDATE: The difference between the Frosts’ situation and the hypothetical “two kids” is that WallyWorld offers health insurance to its fulltime employees… Hmmm… Bonnie could have goten a job here and had her family covered. And it’s only about three miles from their home! Heck, depending on the streets, she could bike it and save some bucks while getting some exercise… If–COMBINED–their current income from her job and his business is “only” about $45-50,000 a year, the $21-22,000 a year she could make with insurance would substantially improve their financial situation, without having to suck at the public teat at all. Choices. ]
And these folks have been out of school, working, own a business and commercial/rental property for at least 15 years?
Well, maybe I have a clue as to why Halsey’s business is “struggling” (to use the description of his tenant). He has a furniture/cabinetry business, right? So, check this out:
Just offhand, I count seven things in that picture that any halfway decent handyman–let alone a “professional” woodworker/cabinetry maker–would shudder to leave undone at his own place… or leave done so badly (what the heck is so hard about pointing brick well? Heck, I remortared and pointed up the stone foundation on our first “fixer-upper” home better than the brick’s done in the photo). And why the heck don’t they at least sweep the stoop? Trying to look “trashy enough” for welfare? Newsflash: people I know who truly qualify for public assistance have more pride in their abode (even just rentals) than these folks seem to have.
Imagine a prospective customer who lived in the same area and just happened to see Frost coming and going from that house and realized he’d been contemplating having furniture made for him… by a slob. Probably wouldn’t be surprised. I can hardly imagine Frost’s shop being neater than his home.
Just a thought. Maybe if Halsey put a little more thoughtfulness into maintaining his own home, he’d see some decent work ethic reflected in his “business” and be able to have a better income.
Just a thought. Not even a substantive thought. Just a thought.
(Oh, and now the Frosts are saying they make “between $45,000 and $50,000 a year” (same link as above). Gone up. When will it go up next? *heh*
Halsey and Bonnie Frost: I know people who are truly “working poor”; you don’t qualify as such.
This is the first time I’ve heard this story, but I think I would take the Frost’s side.
First, the person who said (and it sounds like an uneducated, or at least naive, teen):
“If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. … I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I’d do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info.”
Should feel very, very ashamed, especially considering the number of able-bodied people sitting on their a** doing nothing supporting 3 or 4 (or maybe more)kids and their fat selves and maybe a boyfriend or two on government funds and the children of illegal immigrants that receive free health care just because they were born in the US.
I think to understand this couples view, a person has to understand what it is like to work for yourself and own a business.
Lazy Americans who feel that it’s better to work for someone else and enjoy their benefits rather than pursue a dream and face a challenge aren’t too much better than the millions on welfare who truly could be supporting themselves and aren’t, at least in my opinion.
My husband and I own our own business. I work for my husband keeping books and managing advertising and for myself as a freelance writer. Our combined income was about $39,000 last year. We have 3 kids, live in a decent neighborhood, and have one nice vehicle. We use a state children’s health care plan and neither of us have insurance because it really is a lot of money for self-employed people.
Now, I plan to hopefully work it into our budget within the next year because we won’t qualify for state insurance much longer (businesses tend to grow with time, while those working for someone else typically see, what? an extra quarter or so an hour each year?), But if something were to happen to us right now, we would be screwed without some sort of assistance.
I’m sure the Frosts see more than $40,000 come through their hands in a year, but with operating a business there are lots of other expenses that are deducted from your income and after all is said and done, that’s the net income on the tax form and what is used to define their ‘salary’, so to speak.
And why should a working mom be criticized for not sending her kid to public school? I can’t afford private school (maybe I should look into scholarship and tuition assistance) so I homeschool…why would any sane person who values their child’s safety and education choose to send their kid to public school if there was another option?
That’s my opinion on the matter 🙂
Daneille,
I’ve seen the remark you mention in your second graph. Haven’t seen the original, just seen it bruited about. I know of no responsible person who’d make such a remark.
I understand being self-employed. I R one. I know about gross income, net and what business expenses do to the bottom line. What I do NOT understand is the Frost’s apparently cavalier attitude toward their own responsibilities. Apparently, I say, because I know what raising a brood of children on less-than-stellar income is like. And I know the kinds of decisions one must make to be responsible with a limited income.
I also know that foisting the costs of ones personal choices off on others to underwrite is the mark of an adolescent, an immature person. And that’s what the Frost’s come across as, from everything I can gather so far, from their detracters and supporters.
So far.
I’m not condemning them, but I am calling it like I see it so far, and that is that the Dims could hardly have picked a less-qualified family for support of a program of feeding at the public trough. Private fundraisers to help them in their need? Sure, and I’d probably kick in something were they neighbors or members of my community. But forcing folks who often ARE being responsible, paying for their own and their children’s healthcare on less income and with fewer assets to draw upon than the Frosts have–forcing such folks to pay for the Frosts’ lack of care is immoral, IMO.
The truly needy should recieve help. (Not from the Feds or any program madated by the Feds; that’s plainly unconstitutional as anyone who’s read both the Constitution and the Framers’ own words can clearly see–but that’s another fight).
I’m sure there are those who, like the Frosts, are making between $40,000 and (supposedly in their case, according to Bonnie Frost’s latest revision–I still don’t quite believe it) $50,000 and “cannot afford” health insurance for their families… because of going in too much debt with a nice car (however they define “nice”), a “nice” house, clothes they paid too much for, cell phones out the wazoo (I can tell you horror stories about young enlisted men getting in over their heads financially but being unable to cancel expensive cell phone contracts… that they didn’t really need to begin with), grocery budgets padded with convenience foods, etc.–IOW, all the trappings of a life of leisure, and little of the trappings of genuine frugality.
Because of the many, many UNfrugal decisions made elsewhere in their lives: “Oh, let’s let our insurance needs go by the board. We really can’t afford it.”
B.S. A halfway decent financial planner can always come up with enough–or ways to make what is coming in enough.
If Frost had really done a decent remodel job (the $52,000 refi in 2005 was, according to one statement by Bonnie, for remodeling, in part for special needs for the children)–and he didn’t, by the evidence of the picture in this post–then they could have realized a substantial profit on the home, moved to a more modest abode and afforded health insurance long before the 2003 event–if they’d taken the steps in a timely fashion, realizing that (if his business has indeed been “struggling” for some time) they needed to downsize their life, for the good of the children, if nothing else.
Lots of decisions they could have made to avert their bind. (The injuries suffered by the children are most consistent with them NOT having been wearing seat restraints–that would have averted a LOT of pain and suffering right there. I don’t KNOW that to be the case, but I’ve been hit in a much less substantial car by a behemoth, without suffering more than a bruising, because of the seat restraint I was wearing… and the car I was in was more than just totaled, it was nearly pancaked.)
Why the public should be compelled to pick up the tab for their decisions, I really cannot see.
I can see your point, David.
And, quite honestly, I probably fall into that same category, but I would venture to say most of us do. You don’t expect to be in the situation of ‘need’ before you’ve gotten ‘prepared’. I hope I make sense…I’m half asleep *yawn*
Americans are notorius for over-spending and under-budgeting…I guess the story came across as ‘picking on the middle class self-employed’ and I immediately got defensive.
And I feel that if government assistance can be used by some of the people I’ve seen using it (400 lb women with 5 dirty, skinny kids and a big shopping cart full of steaks and chocolate, paying with food stamps)…
Then everyone deserves affordable health care, especially in a life and death situation. Which would you rather see your tax dollars supporting?
I guess if I was in their situation, even if I was negligent enough to leave my children improperly restrained, I don’t feel I would ‘deserve’ to have my child die because I failed to secure health insurance.
We are, and should be, responsible for our families and their care, but affordable health insurance for every family would be a wonderful priviledge to all working families, especially the self-employed.
Oh, and we doubled our rent last year to move out of a tiny, dilapedated 2 bedroom duplex into a 3 bedroom house…and its still not really enough space, but its do-able. In some cases, downsizing your home is not in the best interest of the children!
I know, their situation could have been avoided with better budgeting, more sound financial planning, and possibly more attention to safety, but do we really plan for the unexpected…whether its insurance, emergency saving, a retirement plan, credit card debt, or even having a plan already in place in case of a fire…no one’s perfect and things happen. Is it really fair to chastize people for their imperfections?
I haven’t read all the details on this and haven’t really seen much on the Frosts actual reactions and stuff so I may be too easy on them specifically, but the overall idea of the story and the bashing this family seems to be taking just seems rather unfair.
I like your blog by the way 😉
David, I think you are right.
It is a matter of priorities. If they were responsible parents then health insurance would be a very high priority. And, they would have it.
I too own a small business and know that planning and prioritizing is necessary whether you make $40K or $400K. In neither case is it the responsibility of the taxpayers to subsidize anyone’s bad decisions and putting health insurance as a low priority is a bad decision.
This is more creeping socalism for the indolent and dull at the expense of the responsible and hard working.
Danielle,
Didn’t mean to seem like I was responding to YOUR situation–I plead days of sleep deprivation and not enough coffee. *heh*
This rang a bell:
“And I feel that if government assistance can be used by some of the people I’ve seen using it (400 lb women with 5 dirty, skinny kids and a big shopping cart full of steaks and chocolate, paying with food stamps)…”
When my Wonder Woman and I married (gettin’ on 30 years ago, now), we bought a home in “the better part of the ghetto” (a real “rehabber”), in part because it was a sweetheart buy (that nevertheless required a ton of sweat equity) and in part because it was within walking distance–not that walking was always safe *sigh*–of our work… with the people who lived in the neighborhood. Felt like if they were good enough to help, they were good enough to live with.
Still we saw a lot of what you refer to as we shoppe3d at the local supernarket: our basket with beans and rice and cornmeal and some inexpensive hamburger waiting in line behind someone with foodstamps paying for a basketfull of steaks and other high-dollar and convenience foods. Made me wonder then, even though I knew many families on public assistence who had “black market” jobs pulling in much more than tyhe government saw–more than WW and I made combined.
Yes, that swayed my opinions on “welfare” and other socialist government assistance programs, as did the times I volunteered in a food bank and a homeless shelter.
Middle class (and no matter how socially crippled the folk or how normed down the criteria, the Frosts are still economically middle class) welfare is reprehensible to me.
BTW, after changing work, selling our first house and moving on, we rented for years. Yes, children do make a difference in ones choice of home/neighborhood. I don’t know where you live or your other circumstances, naturally, but you might get in the habit of looking for rehab possibilities, repos, etc., as a way to get out of a rental and into some equity. Not necessarily saying jump into buying while you’re still building your business. Just get in the habit of looking, honing the research skills, etc. It can make a difference.
I need a little slap in the face every once in a while 😉
Your reply was generic…I just made it personal. 🙂
My personal opinion is that instead of ‘welfare’ for people who can’t have a job for whatever reason or can’t work for more than min wage, but can’t stop having kids, we should have ‘assistance programs’ for those who do work. Whether its at the state level or the federal level.
It seems the cost of living is increasing much faster than the rate of pay. To live in a ‘decent’ neighborhood in a house spacious enough to be comfortable is important to me. My children’s health is important to me. Reliable transportation that fits the whole family comfortably and can double for the business is important as well.
Then there’s having food on the table, gas in the vehicle, etc. etc. Education should be a priority too.
I’m sure I support this sort of thing because right now, at this point in my life, that would benefit me and my family.
Maybe in a few years when we’ve overcome financial instability, our children are older, blah, blah, blah, I’ll feel differently…especially when there was no one there to help me LOL
And thanks for the info on renting/buying. There’s a possiblilty our landlord will sell us the house we’re renting now in a few years. We’ll probably wait it out so we’re not throwing all that money out the window and then decide whether to stay or sell.